Most people only go for xrays after there is a problem. It is very important for dogs who are involved in dog sports to have a complete set of xrays on file so that even very subtle differences can be seen before there are any big problems. Becky Harstad
I xrayed my 12 month old girl to be sure the growth plates were closed (which
they were) so I could know when I could start raising jump bars. She did
not have to have anesthesia - she had her entire front leg (shoulder to pastern)
xrayed without any sedation. Having a vet that understands how to do this
is important, and the most important part of it is having the owner back into
the xray room to help. I have had xrays done on my dogs many times now, I
have always been with the dog, and the dog has never needed any drugs
whatsoever. Makes it much easier to do growth plate surveillance. Sue
Fregien
Great info. However, we did the entire body. I am not at all convinced that
we could have done this without anesthesia. Tell us all more about no anesthesia
and x-raying the entire body. I don't believe that doing one leg or the hips is
enough. My dogs have shown the stress of agility in their backs. As a result, I
have learned to look at every part of the dog for a baseline. Kathryn Horn
And if you have a hard time locating a vet who is skilled at x-raying sans anesthesia in your area ask some of the local breeders (especially of coated breeds as putting them under tends to cause them to blow coat) who they use for hip x-rays etc. Kristine Loland
X-raying without sedation requires a dog that will cooperate being laid on it's back, side and chest and will allow the Technicians to STRETCH limbs when needed.
Most of the time it is the dog not the vet that must cooperate and be willing to do it with out sedation. Sarah Gardner
> She did not have to have anesthesia - she had her entire
front leg
>(shoulder to pastern) xrayed without any sedation.
Front leg being MUCH easier to do than the standard hip-extended view that OFA
uses ... I would certainly at least try to do a front leg without
sedation/anesthesia on most patients, including those I expect to find some sort
of pathology (fracture, etc.), not just those who want verification of growth
plate closure. In fact, I /did/ do just this last weekend for a pup
who came in lame.
>Having a vet that
>understands how to do this is important, and the most important part of
>it is having the owner back into the xray room to help.
Only if your vet doesn't care much about radiation safety. It is actually
illegal to allow somebody to help with xrays who doesn't have a radiation safety
badge to monitor human exposure. PLEASE don't everybody out there expect your
veterinarian to allow you to be in the xray room to help, as there are MANY of
us in the profession who will NOT, under any
circumstances, take that risk with our license and livelihood. (Not to mention
somebody else's gonads and/or uterus. Gratuitous exposure to xrays is dangerous
to a fetus, etc.)
A lot also depends on the individual dog. I had an Akita who, years before I
became a vet, had OFA-quality hip xrays made without any kind of sedation at
all. The vet was skeptical, but this dog was VERY laid back and loved to lay on
her back anyway. Now that I have a better understanding of what goes into making
OFA quality hip xrays, I'm even more amazed at this dog (and the vet who made
the rads). Some dogs -- including some of the "edgy", high drive dogs
that I see in agility, probably would be so nervous up on a table in a darkly
lit room surrounded by strangers (whether or not the owner is around, there will
still be at least one or more other people in the room) -- would not hold still
for good xrays without either some sort of rodeo or chemical restraint. Some
dogs are calmer when the owner isn't
around "to rescue" them; others are truly calmer with the owner
present.
It doesn't hurt to ask your vet if they'll consider it. But if your vet tries to
do xrays without sedation and isn't successful -- don't blame the vet! And if
your vet won't even try ... it probably has to do with past experiences. I
wouldn't try to do OFA hip xrays without anesthesia on 98% of the dogs I see in
my practice -- and this includes my own dogs! (One of whom did just have her OFA
hip xrays done two weeks ago -- under full anesthesia.) Lynda Oleksuk, DVM
Lynda is
right, at the Orthopedic Specialty Clinic that I've worked for, for almost 8
years now 95% of our x-rays are done under a light sedation (ie: they walk into
the radiology department and walk out - a little drunk perhaps but walking
<G>). The only time we use anesthesia and put them fully out is
pre/post op and also when doing PennHip Evaluations - which it's required.
When you do as many radiographs as most busy general (or Speciality) clinics do
on a daily basis - they do know how to get the best films! I
personally would rather have them lightly sedate my own dogs (who are
comfortable at the clinic and know everyone there) and get the films done in a
matter of 10 minutes - then to try without the sedation and spend 1 hour, now
stressing the dog as they keeps having to repeated the position (which most
clinics do not have that kind of time for one single dogs films) and then 10
shots later you get one good diagnostic radiograph.
We have one advantage at our clinic as all our radiographic equipment is digital
so our doctors and technicians can see what they are getting on the screen
before having to wait for the length of time it takes to develop that particular
radiograph and know whether they need to repeat it or not. Most clinics do
not have this advantage so it's a lot of time used in between to see what you've
got and if it's good or bad - the waiting is also stressful for the dogs.
With sedation the dog is more relaxed - the shots are taken cooperatively and
quickly and there is less stress to all involved.
And a VERY good point Lynda made - in agility we are "creating" a
higher and higher driven dog - and they are NOT normally the "easiest"
of patients when in a strange and different environment. Usually a little
sedation (NOT anesthesia just sedation) and the job gets done quickly and
calmly.
And as someone else mentioned....liability insurances do not allow non-employees
(yes, that's even owners) to be back in radiology (at least
in our area). Becky Nicholas
My two cent
observations.
My Malinois went in for x rays for her knee. With no sedation the local
vet took at least 15 shots and still didn't really have a good one so they could
tell she had a tear in her ACL 100 %.
Went to a special ortho doc clinic they sedated her lightly .took
ONE shot and diagnosed it. She also had her hips and elbows done this way.
Also some breeds do have problems with anesthesia . Malinois being one of them.
I also make sure the vets are aware of that fact before they do any
thing . Joanne Kuchinski
I have to
disagree with this one. We have just one vet around here who does
x-rays without sedation. People come from hundreds of miles to go to him,
not
as a regular vet, but just to have x-rays taken. I have a large male
Rottie who
"worries" about everything. I never thought he would be able to
get x-rays
(hips and elbows) without using some sedation, but he was even able to get
pictures taken on him without any sedation at all. I don't think any other
vet
around here could have gotten x-rays of my boy without sedating him.
Although I am sure there are a few, I have yet to hear of ANY dog needing
sedation that has gone to him for x-rays. I would say this is 95% vet and
5%
dog. There is definitely a technique to it. Elaine Giannelli
I think we are
going off the deep end a bit with all this talk of xrays.....
There is no real benefit to xraying an apparently healthy dog from stem to stern
on a regular basis: The chance of actually picking up clinically significant
radiographic changes in a sound, clean-moving, dog is very slight. More
importantly, the chance of PREDICTING future soundness in the same dog, based on
survey radiographs, is also slight. I also think that relying on radiographic
growth plate closure as a measure of readiness to undertake intense training is
missing the boat a bit. Growth plates are far from the only (and maybe not even
the most important) structure that may be harmed from overuse.
Now, before you cart me off to the funny farm in a lovely, form-fitting white
jacket, I am not saying NEVER xray, and I'm not saying NEVER consider the
orthopedic health of your agility partner! What I am saying is that the
information we gain from "survey radiographs" of the healthy patient
can be limited, so we need to know what to look for and why.....
So, what do we learn by xraying an apparently normal 12-14 month old agility
dog? We learn that the joints look pretty good....at 12-14 months of age. We may
also learn about growth plate activity, which is good, but we don't learn much
about subtle joint pathology, and we don't learn anything about ligament,
tendon, muscle, etc. quality. We can't even say with any certainty that the hips
that look good today will be OK down the line, or if the spine will tend towards
spondylosis in later years. Yes, there may be dogs out there with significant
radiographic lesions, but these are rarely clinically silent (my own dog is one
of them- more about this later), but most of the time, we get "good to
go" from the vet, and so we do. BUT, the truth is that we CANNOT predict
which of these radiographically sound dogs will get into trouble down the road,
in the many ways that agility dogs can get into trouble!
Radiographically normal toes does not mean that you won't get a toe jam....and 4
weeks off. Healthy shoulder joints does not mean that you won't get bicipital
tenosynovitis.....and 3 months off. A nice clean spine at 12 months does not
mean that your dog won't have widespread spondylosis at 6 years....and maybe an
early retirement, 'cause it ain't fun anymore. Even the things we think we CAN
predict, like clinically significant hip and elbow dysplasia, are not always so
eay to see in the young dog (now don't get me started on breeders who think it's
OK to breed a giant breed based on an OFA prelim. at 9 months!). And, MOST
IMPORTANT OF ALL, clean rads don't mean that your dog can cope with poor
training, conditioning and handling! No matter what kind of dog you have, and
what level of competition you aspire to, keeping your dog fit, lean and flexible
is the way to go.
So, I guess my point is that, if you have a sound, clean-moving dog, who is
willing and able to jump, and with no family or breed predisposition to specific
orthopedic problems, you don't need to xray until poor Fluffy glows in the dark!
For the occasional competitor, I don't think you necessarily have to do ANY
radiographs pre-training, as long as you keep your dog fit, and there are no
training issues that might lead you to think of pain or lack of flexibility. For
the potential world-beater, do hips for sure, and elbows and shoulders if there
is a family or breed predispostion. If you are doing hips at less than 18 months
in a large breed, do PennHIP if you can- the predicitive value may well be
higher. I might repeat at 4-5 years, and add some spine shots at that time to
look for spondylosis. Of course, if there are any lameness or movement issues
along the way, you would address those at the time.
I would do at least the hip xrays under sedation. The point of doing all this is
to get the best information about your dog's current and future health, and
possibly the health of future generations, if your agility dog is also a
breeding prospect. Doing unsedated xrays may lead you to settle for a barely
diagnostic film.... because you are getting d*mned tired of dog-wrestling (see
below), and muscle tension may give you a false sense of security about hip
integrity. I also think it is much harder on a dog to have this done without
sedation!
Rarely, you may find a significant lesion in a young, apparently sound dog. My
own Border terrier, Robin, was one of them.....AND I MISSED IT! Because she was
my own dog, and I was fitting her in at work, I chose to do her hip xrays
without sedation. Well, Robin was a total jerk, and we barely got decent hip
xrays. her hips were (and are) OK, but because of the poor positioning of the
films, I did not get a good view of the last lumbar vertebrae. Unfortunately,
Robin has a malformed L6, which has led to quite severe L6-L7 and L7-S
spondylosis. I only recognised this about 6 months ago when she was sedated for
another matter and I decided to repeat the rads for comparison. Because she was
asleep, I got good films, and could easily make the diagnosis. Thankfully,
Robin's lesion has been clinically silent, and while I have moved her from
jumping 16" to 10", I see no need to cut short her agility career.
Cases like Robin's are rare, and IMO, do not justify mass radiographing of
healthy dogs. It would be far more important for the agility careers of most
dogs to have their fitness and their jumping and turning skills measured....but
we don't know how to do that on a large scale! Claire Duder DVM
The age at
which I do prelim OFAs or screening films for performance varies by breed and
plans for the dog- anywhere from 6 mos up to 2 years; personally I think
the hip films give you an idea of where the growth plates in the pelvis and
femur are and that is an adequate amount of information to make a decision
about how growth plate closure will affect your training. I do not require
anesthesia for these films unless it is necessary in order to position the dog.
In OFA "official" films done at 2 or older I DO require anesthesia for
a couple of reasons. It is difficult to get a "perfect"
radiograph on an awake dog- you may be able to get one that is diagnostic, but
for OFA I like my rads to be as close to perfect as I can possibly get them as
it makes our information that much more accurate (not to mention being a matter
of pride if I have to send them in with my name on them!). It also
gives you muscle relaxation, which allows joint laxity to be evaluated both on
physical exam and to a degree on the radiographs. I have had
several dogs who probably would have passed OFA unsedated because they were not
sufficiently relaxed for the joint laxity to be apparent. Once sedated and
deeply relaxed, the hips were quite lax (one to the point of being able to
subluxate it) and they clearly should not have passed, although there were no
structural or degenerative changes as yet- it definitely impacted the
relationship between femur and pelvis. Because OFA is also used to
make breeding decisions which may affect many generations of dogs, whereas the
prelims will be confirmed later and the screening films affect only one
individual, I feel it is especially important that this factor be addressed and
our information be as valid as possible. It is
hard to convince people that this is not another title to hang on the wall- we
want ACCURATE information which may not be an excellent rating for every dog!
I
did not "get" your dog an excellent, I just tried to obtain the most
accurate and diagnostic films possible. Likewise I didn't "get your
dog a fair" either!. It is your job to take the information and use
it wisely in your breeding program. I do use
general anesthesia, although typically try to use one that is either short
acting or reversable, so they can go home within half an hour to an hour.
In my experience, "light sedation" does not give the appropriate
muscle relaxation and can actually make it harder.
Some breeds of dogs are more difficult to position correctly than others;
large heavy muscled breeds or very deep chested, thin waisted breeds may be
impossible to position correctly awake no matter how cooperative the dog.
(another reason I will try the prelims awake- the dogs are usually younger,
smaller, and less heavily muscled thereby easier to position). Training HELPS,
but is not a guarantee or total substitue for anesthesia. And of course,
economics factor in to a degree because it simply is not cost effective for me
to wrestle a dog for an hour when I can have a better film, better information,
very
safely in 10 minutes with anesthesia. (I have, on a very few occasions,
agreed to do the OFA films without anesthesia and charge by time used, but doubt
I would
do it again for the reasons above).
Whether or not your dog needs screening films done as a youngster depends
on how much you plan to compete. The occasional competitor probably doesn't need
to worry, but I don't know too many of those ;-). Most of us I see out
there competing weekend after weekend with our dogs and the rads can probably
done for the cost of a weekend of agility or less, so I'd rather err on the side
of caution. I just rechecked my six year old (done at six months or so
originally) and
submitted his hips and elbows to OFA (hadn't gotten around to it because didn't
have any immediate breeding plans and was waiting for him to need anesthesia for
something else at the same time) and will probably recheck yearly because I can,
and I'm paranoid. Any rechecks most likely without sedation- we have the
good baseline, know he's not lax, and need primarily to evaluate degenerative
changes from here on out, plus he's small, light muscled and used to being
worked on. Probably six or so is a good age to recheck and then again every 2-4
years increasing in frequency as the dog ages- my old dog competed
consistently until 12 and occasionally until 14 and I did get pretty anal about
radiographing every little gimp when I was still competing him at that age.
Larger breed dogs on the more frequent and younger end of the scale, smaller
breeds on the less frequent and older end as a general rule. I am happy to
report
that after consistent training and trialing in agility and obedience, with a
little tracking and herding thrown in, my old dog (now 16) continued to have
minimal skelatol changes in hips, spine and elbows at 14 and my six year old was
OFA excellent with normal elbows. Yay! I won't lie and tell you I
didn't ever jump more than shoulder height with the younger dog as a puppy, and
he started to learn weaves relatively early, but MODERATION was the key and I
don't feel I asked him to do anything too stressful too early (he did stop
growing very early and his plates closed much earlier than would be typical).
I worry much more about his total lack of self preservation now than about any
chronic stress- he enjoys smashing things and scaring me to death! Becky
Golatzki DVM
As veterinarian and a pet owner, I would like to radiograph every patient awake. Every patient. However, tenseness covers up certain conditions such as OCD and Hip Dysplasia, so you might be thrilled that some veterinarian or another does this or that awake, but the best advise I can give for some problems is to radiograph the patient sedated or under anesthesia. Certain states require that no human be in the room while rads are done- I think that is true in NY.
All that aside, every patient doesn't need to be radiographed from head to toe
at 1 year of age. My youngest dog, Shortstop, is a 3 LB dog whose plates
have closed (darn it), but he has to develop muscle strength that comes with a
little more age. I can't ask the little lunatic for A frames until then, but he
can comfortably begin weave training in my opinion. Do we know what all they
need and at what age before asking them to be athletic, Absolutely not. I
would prefer to be safe than sorry. I still compete with a 12 year old
miniature poodle, She has no arthritis, no changes to her MS system at all, she
is however needing glasses. My expectations and my goals need to be
realistic. That is true if the dog is 6 months or 16. Your dog
should want to work with you, you must be the decision maker as to if the job is
to great for your dog's body or mental skills. Good luck and happy holidays, Mona
L. Gitter DVM
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